I know I’m gonna get down-voted to hell on this one but I’ve seen such a massive trend among diasporic Iranians who only ever want to emphasise Persian pre-Islamic history and culture as the “true Iranian history” and everything post-Islamic as “tahmili” (enforced) and not genuine.
When there are elements of post-Islamic history these people like, they cherry pick and whitewash figures like Hafez and Sa’adi to the point where you would think these guys were secular modernists who happened to live in Iran. Hell, I got into an argument of IG the other day with an Iranian who was trying to convince me that RUMI was secular. Rumi, the guy who essentially pioneered Islamic love mysticism in Persian Ghazal poetry and was a Hanafi Faqih (an Islamic legal scholar).
I think it sends a really terrible message to the rest of the world when we can’t even embrace our own history. Yes, the Arab invasion brought Islam on us, but there is almost 2,000 years of history between now and then which has shaped our culture MUCH MORE significantly than some ancient empire.
To me it just seems like people who do this are just trying to warp our own history so that Iran becomes more palatable and attractive to Western tastes. Its as if they’re trying to say “look guys we aren’t just a bunch of dirty muslims we’re civilised like you!!! Please pay attention to us we’re like you so pure and Aryan and ancient!!”
EDIT: I would like to also acknowledge the impact of the religious trauma caused among many of the diaspora from the brutalities of the Islamic Regime. Of course it is understandable that in face of this, people would turn to the most anti-Islamic ideology they can find. However, I also would like to say that there is a danger in revising or ignoring large part of history to fit your current political beliefs. Whichever way you swing, if you go too far you will find fanaticism. There was once a time where a group of people believed that their identity and ideology was being sidelined by an authoritarian regime. In response, they cannibalised and militarised their ideology and revolted against the regime. This led to the creation of an even more authoritarian regime: The Islamic Republic.
EDIT 2: Felt the need to include this one because I feel as though I have received the same comment over and over again. I, at no point, said that we should ignore or disregard Iran’s pre-Islamic history or prioritise Iran’s post-Islamic history over it. I think both can be extremely interesting and I am always down to learn our history from any time period, if it is presented in good faith. I am just concerned with the extent Iran’s pre-Islamic history is utopianised whilst the post-Islamic history is regarded as some sort of horrible dark ages where our greatest achievement was preserving elements of Iran’s pre-Islamic culture.
I completely disagree, trying to make Iranian achievements sound like they are Islamic achievements is the biggest crime in Iranian history. Many time a lot of our scientists and scholars were forbidden from publishing their work unless they related to Islam or changed their name into Islamic names. We are doing them a disservice by forgetting about their struggles to keep Iranian culture alive. Islamic history is not inclusive of all of Iranian population. It’s a period in our history full of bloodshed and violence, just because we thrived despite the violence doesn’t mean we should forget the crimes of Islam.
Iranians rejecting Islamic history has nothing to do with the west, that sounds like an IR talking point. We reject it because we have suffered and have been denied the chance to be ourselves. Why relate everything to the west? Iranians trying to set themselves apart from other Muslims dates way back before the west gained any power. That’s how Shia Islam was invented by Iranians, to set themselves apart from the rest. We all know Shia is bs.
I think the non Islamic part of our culture will be the main focus because honestly most of us prefer it it’s the part of our culture completely untouched and unmodified by external forces
I really don’t think Rumi’s poems are about Islam, unfortunately Islamists have stuck themselves to Rumi just because he talks about some of the prophets and religion, his poems are beautifully deep, and resonate with people’s soul.
Read his poems and tell me how much of it is about Islam
I don’t have time to read this long ass text wall, but I strongly disagree. The pre-Islamic culture and history of Iran have been ignored for too long and needs extra attention now. Plus decline of Islam in Iran is very likely to the point that it may loose its majority, so we need something to feel the vacuum.
Additionally some of our neighbors, especially republic of Azerbaijan, are promoting fake revisionist history based on ethno-nationliat ideas, promoting pre-Islamic Iran with an eye of Islamic Iran is the much needed response.
Proud ‘pure’ Zoroastrian Persian here, and I fully agree.
While we hate the current Islamic Regime and while Islam was forced upon (some of) us 1400 years ago and so we hate to admit it, undoubtedly Islam has had a huge positive impact on the world and crucially we were the driving force of that success.
Yes it has sunk to the depths of fanaticism for centuries now but at one time it was the shining light of the world that brought about the Renaissance in the West, science, culture, art etc etc. We can’t look at the joke it has become now and assume it was always that way.
A world superpower for the preceding 1200 years with three major dynasties inventing empires, roads, human rights, postal services, fridges, wind towers, taxation, chivalry, jousting, armoured mounted knights, monotheistic religion etc etc etc. Our level of civilisation then was so high we’d always look down even on Greeks/Romans etc as relatively uncivilised but Arabs (with respect) weren’t even considered worthy of comparison as they were just wild tribesmen of the desert everyone ignored. How did these illiterate people cobble together this huge empire with no previous military, strategic, scientific, empire building, logistic etc etc know-how at all? We were the engine room of Islam. Their greatest and most noble leader was Iranian (Kurdish), as many of the greatest poets philosophers and scientists. As such we should consider the successes of Islam as a realisation of Iranian greatness that shone for the preceding 1200 years. We, under the banner of Islam, and alongside Arabs, realised our greatest military achievements and took it further than ever before.
It’s something we should be proud of, in my opinion. But now Islam has fallen to the depths of savagery we need to shed it and rise above it, remembering who we actually are and continue leading the way, or at least just contributing to world civilisation. Because this is not what we are. It was just a temporary cloak we wore to continue our work of centuries of empire building and civilisation. Doesn’t mean we can’t be proud of the part we played in making Islam what it was though.
The sad reality is that much of the literature, art, and philosophy of pre-Islamic Iran has been lost forever.
You can name countless post-Islamic Persian scientists, poets, and philosophers but just how many can people name from 2500 years ago?
Trying to disassociate Islam with Iranian history and accomplishments is like trying to disassociate Christianity with European culture from Middle ages till at least the Renaissance.
If people don’t engage with Iranian history or culture after the coming of Islam, then it is they who miss out because many interesting historical developments and cultural works are produced in that time.
I do want to say that this history isn’t really being ignored, there are plenty of people discussing the works of people like Rumi, and they do so not in the manner like you describe and without this revisionism.
It’s good you brought attention to the existence of revisionists but perhaps we should focus our attention to people who engage with our history in a more productive manner.
go tell Black people in America, they should be happy about slavery otherwise they wouldn’t have Michael Jackson, Muhammed Ali, Whitney Houston or Michael Jordan. But let’s just say hypothetical that Islam(yeah woman beating and acting like a macho makes you more intelligent) was a benefactor, even that it’s not justifying the horrors of this disgusting violent ideology. Because of these posts we will never ever get rid of this cancer and virus that is called Islam.
I don’t think it has to do anything with pleasing other countries and making them think we are “western”?
Islam was a foreign belief forced upon the country. It’s been “2000 years” like you have mentioned, yet we still are fighting against the religion and rejecting it because it is foreign to our traditional culture.
Also, there were dynasties after the “post Islamic” period of Iran that were still trying to establish our pre islamic identity. Refer to the Dabuyid dynasty from 642-760 and the Ziyarid dynasty under Mardavij’s command. Also refer to the Paduspanids established in 665 and ending in 1598 by defeat from the Safavid’s. They were in direct conflict with the Safavid dynasty and if they’re were able to succeed maybe the country wouldn’t be Islamic.
Who really knows, but it goes to show that our pre Islamic identity is not a new movement we created out of thin air to appease people. And the influence you’re making it seem to have, is not as great as it is. There have been many dynasties and pockets of resistance throughout time that are not that long ago as you may think.
Our history and culture is so strong that essentially every other country that was invaded by the islamic conquests became Islamified and yet we kept our traditions, holidays, and language, it just goes to show that we have always had a strong connection to our pre islamic identity.
It is important we continue to keep our pre islamic identity alive for many reasons. Just the name of our country being from the pre islamic period of our history is enough reason for us to continue holding onto our roots and traditions. We would lose a lot of our identity and understanding of our culture if we let it go (which is exactly what the regime and division groups want us to do).
The reason to why Islamic identity has been ignored to such an extent in this revolution is because Iran is a multiethnic country that needs to have a unifying ideology between the many nations that live within its borders. For thousands of years, this unifying ideology was the authority of the monarch, who kept the country together by force (thus gaining the title King of Kings). After 1979, the unifying ideology became Islamism as the majority of the country were conservative Muslims. However, times have changed and Islam is losing its influence in Iran. So a revolution against Islamism needs to replace it with its own unifying ideology. Many people have turned to ancient Iran to justify Iran’s continued existence. Basically the argument now is that the Iranian people are not merely a collection of various different ethnicities and language groups, but are rather one proud race and tradition which has existed since the time of Cyrus the Great (which is true). Essentially, we’re seeing the development of a proto-fascist revolutionary ideology which uses ancient Iranian civilisation as its founding mythos. This is why Islamic history of Iran has been neglected. This new nationalist ideology exists as opposition to Islamism , which is why Islamic history of Iranians has been ignored.
Thanks for this post. Lots of Iran literature has some Arabic text in them. Some people talk so hateful of Islam and even Arabs. To please them, should we gnore all the Arabic parts of Persian literature?
اَلا یا اَیُّهَا السّاقی اَدِرْ کَأسَاً و ناوِلْها
که عشق آسان نمود اوّل ولی افتاد مشکلها
Iran history according to Pahlavists:
Before Islamic invasion: A great empire that everyone is free with a modern system of government. Everyone was happy. No corruption or any harm to any one.
After Islamic revolution: Dark times for 1400ish years. All murder, rape and forced religion.
After Reza Shah: Country was going back to its glory of old Persian empire. Pahlavis modernized an uneducated an illiterate barbaric nation.
After Islamic revolution: Country went back to Dark ages, and it is Reza Pahlavi responsibility to bring back the country to its glory days.
ما باید نادیده گرفتن تاریخ پسا اسلام خود را متوقف کنیم
من می دانم که در این مورد به جهنم رای خواهم داد، اما من چنین روند گسترده ای را در میان ایرانیان پراکنده دیده ام که فقط می خواهند تاریخ و فرهنگ فارسی پیش از اسلام را به عنوان “تاریخ واقعی ایران” و همه چیز پس از اسلام به عنوان “tahmili” (اجباری) و نه واقعی تاکید کنند.
هنگامی که عناصری از تاریخ پسا اسلام وجود دارد که این افراد دوست دارند، انها چهره هایی مانند حافظ و سعدی را انتخاب می کنند و سفید می کنند تا جایی که شما فکر می کنید این افراد مدرنیست های سکولار هستند که در ایران زندگی می کنند. جهنم، من روز دیگر با یک ایرانی که سعی داشت مرا متقاعد کند که مولانا سکولار است، بحث کردم. مولانا، مردی که اساسا پیشگام عرفان عشق اسلامی در شعر غزال فارسی بود و فقیه حنفی (یک محقق حقوقی اسلامی) بود.
من فکر می کنم این یک پیام واقعا وحشتناک به بقیه جهان می فرستد، زمانی که ما حتی نمی توانیم تاریخ خودمان را در اغوش بگیریم. بله، تهاجم اعراب اسلام را به ما تحمیل کرد، اما تقریبا 2000 سال تاریخ از حالا تا ان زمان وجود دارد که فرهنگ ما را بسیار بیشتر از یک امپراتوری باستانی شکل داده است.
برای من به نظر می رسد افرادی که این کار را انجام می دهند فقط سعی می کنند تاریخ خودمان را منحرف کنند تا ایران برای سلیقه های غربی جذاب تر و جذاب تر شود. مثل این است که انها سعی می کنند بگویند "نگاه کنید بچه ها ما فقط یک دسته مسلمان کثیف نیستیم - ما مانند شما متمدن هستیم!! لطفا به ما توجه کنید ما مثل شما بسیار خالص و اریایی و باستانی هستیم!!
I am a translation bot for r/NewIran | Woman Life Freedom | زن زندگی آزادی
I understand where you’re coming from, and I would actually like to make an amendment to my original post acknowledging the role of the IR in causing so much religious trauma that the pendulum would swing so far the other way among the diaspora.
However, I think that it is a dangerous path to walk. One could argue that the modernism and Westernisation under the Pahlavi’s had given Khomeini and his kind license to act in the exact same way: focus on everything Islamic to keep the flame alive in a largely non-Islamic society. This led to the fanaticism that we see today. Secular ideology is mot immune to this fanaticism, and we need to be careful how not to mythologise and misappropriate history to fit our current political agenda.
Islam wiped out the identities of many proud nations including Egypt which have struggled to revive them. Iran was one of the few parts of the Caliphate to retain a non-Arab identity which Iranians are proud of
Except by disassociating ourselves from Post-Islamic history and/or whitewashing the basic facts of history you are doing the same thing.
Iranian and Islamic “achievements” are not mutually exclusive. For a long period of history they were one and the same. Of course not every Iranian achievement was Islamic and not every Islamic achievement was Iranian. But there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that some of the most renowned Persian scientific figures like Ibn Sina, Al-Biruni, Nasir Al-din etc. were “faking” their religiosity when they all wrote long treatises and essays on religion.
Of course on the other there were other scholars like Khayyam who were critical of religion, and this too should be acknowledged, but to pretend like every “good guy” in Persian history was either outwardly secular atheist or forced to pretend they were religious and all the “bad guys” were genuine Muslim. It is a politicisation of history to fit your current political beliefs.
EDIT: Also I would like to add that the reason I pointed out the desire for many people who secularise Iran’s entire history for specifically Western approval is twofold. The first is purely anecdotal, as noted in my original post it is a trend I have personally noticed among diaspora and seen in discussions with diaspora. Second, it is because much of the secular nationalist literature that emerged during the time of the Constitutional Revolution which glorified Iran’s Aryanness and Pre-Islamic history came as a direct result of the influence of Western Orientaist scholars and their racial and cultural supremacist approach to studying Iranian history. This literature was then adopted by the Pahlavi’s in the school curriculum and influenced the thinking of a number of generations of nationalists who would later flee to the West after the 1979 Revolution. This is not to say that all nationalists think this way. Indeed, I am more nationalist because I prioritise Iranianness in my identity more than any other element. But rather it is important to know the root of the rhetoric surrounding the glorification of pre-Islamic Iran as used in modern political discourse.